Comment on Josh's doubt on "arriving" anywhere
Josh,I don't know if this will help you, as I look to you as a mentor and rarely dish out thoughts and comments. I think that your thoughts are profound and I still feel that I have a long way to go... as we all really do.
Anyway, I am so grateful for all of the research you did in order to get me those books for Christmas. They really have opened my mind to new ideas as well as expansion on old ones.
I was surprised to read that you are struggling with doubt on "arriving" anywhere. Which I think that you might have been saying that you struggle with coming to conclusions, or maybe that the conclusions you come to change after a while. The comments that I have on this come from Adventures in Missing the Point. I hope this will help you out.
There were a few different chapters that stressed these points, and I am going to give you my own combo of insight gained.
First of all, instead of wanting to arrive anywhere with your thoughts on Christianity, be open and willing to take in more and more information, research, and opinions. Pray, discuss your questions and doubts with other Christians. The reason I say this is because, you are never going to arrive anywhere if you want to learn more about God. How can we, as humans, ever grasp the concept of God or of absolute truth? It is when we "arrive" somewhere that we stop learning and start being stubborn, rigid, and small-minded about what we believe. It is like we would be saying that what we believe is the truth and perhaps what other Christians believe is off. Aren't we all "off"? You are never going to arrive at any conclusions, instead you will have theories, new theories, theories that change, and a lot of questions. God is such a mystery... You know that, You told us that at Dar's house. You also said that if God wanted us to know the truth about everything, He would have revealed Himself to us. But, for some reason, faith is very important to God, so he chose to let Himself be a mystery. One thing we do know for sure though, is this. He is there, He sent His Son to be a sacrifice for us, so we would be forever free from sin, and in a scense free to sin. (Not because we want to, but because we will never be perfect and He still loves us).
Another point I would like to make is this. Doubt is not necessarily a bad thing... though it can be. Doubt can also be a good thing. This is, first of all, because it is part of growth and can lead to research and discovery of new ideas. Doubt is normal. Everyone has it, without it, we would be so content in our faith we might not have hunger to go out there and learn more. Doubt often leaves us in a spot where we just have to let go and rely on God. Sometimes it's the opposite, because we may be doubting so much, that we hang on to it, but that does put us in a spot where we pray a lot of frustrated prayers, which don't go unheard.
Anyway, some of what I learned from Adventures in Missing the Point was that we are never going to know the truth about everything. A lot of other valuable things I learned were how the church and Christianity really warped the true meaning of the Bible... not everything, but a lot. I don't think that this has been intentional, I think this has been learned. (e.g.)It's how we grew up and it is what everyone in the Christain church believes and it is good to be unwaivering on your opinions. Stand up for Jesus or you are a coward and luke-warm, therefore will be spewed out of God's mouth. Well, the problem is this: We may just be standing up for the church's image of Jesus. The Jesus in the Bible, the real Jesus, I now believe, is a lot different than the church's perception of him. If we would just stop being so lofty and judgmental, perhaps more people would be drawn to him. A lot of people just don't like Christians. I don't really like the image of Christianity. It makes me feel sick to my stomach and judged. Jesus didn't make people feel that way. I pray that I stop making people feel that way. We need to really sit and read the Bible as whole stories, whole prayers, whole parables, entire books of records, etc. and not all chopped up into pieces like we do. Imagine if you took two sentences out of this post and then made conclusions out of them, or arguments based off of them... you could not have even caught the point that I was trying to make. Too often, we butcher the Bible in that way.
Well, I can go on forever, trust me, but I would love some feedback... also Brynn's in timeout and I have to go get her out. (My kids are far from perfect.) :)
-Jorie
posted by Jorie @ 1:35 PM
9 Comments:
Jorie's edit.
In the last paragraph please take out "there wholistic stories"
and insert
"whole stories, prayers, poems, parables, records, etc."
Okay, disregard my edit, because I already edited my posting.. sorry about the confusion. :)
Jorie,
Your insight is encouraging to say the least. In my mind, I liken it to a sermon I heard the other day by Dallas Willard, (like you) he is a wonderful christian philosopher and teacher. He explained that the word "disciple" means "student." He went on to spell out the obvious implications: that to be a disciple of Jesus means to be a student of Jesus. This, of course, quickly gets to your wonderful post concerning what I will call a never-ending "open-handedness of mind."
Who can capture God in their own "kung-fu" grip?
I guess one of the reasons I was struggling with this is because I am so much more driven when I have a destination. But even as I write this, I discover that I have started to believe in other sorts of destinations that are far more tangible and pragmatic that the abstract and etherial ones we were taught to care about growing up.
Don't get me wrong here, I still think that prayer, worship, and the general and specific pursuit of the Fruits of the Spirit are paramount. I'm just realizing that Jesus wasn't joking around when he defined the Kingdom of God as giving food to those who are hungry, and clothes to those who are naked.
Recently, Megan and I got caught up in the three parables starting around Matthew 22 or so--the one about the virgins, the one about the talons, and the climactic third one about the sheep and the goats.
Reading through them, we found ourselves struggling with an interpretation that made these three verses an escatological (end times) apocolypse. Nevertheless, Jesus clearly says that all of "these things" would happen before the end of THAT (his own) generation. And, knowing a bit of first century history was helpful. Regardless, the verses clearly depicted the plumb line for judgement: compassion, mercy, and a dynamic sort of love that desires the renewed creation of the whole earth...through Jesus-Love. Love that wins via kindness, compassion, grace, hope long-suffering, self-sacrafice and humility.
I'm rambling. Nevertheless, my point is that this new "belief" that has concreteness is called the Kingdom of God. Biblically, it is considered a fouth dimension in which God resides. It is also called "heaven." NT Wright says that the New Testament picture of the Kingdom of God is one in which it is overlapping and interlocking with "this present evil age" and is breaking into this world as an act of God's plan to renew the whole world and everything in it... "every knee will bow and every tougne confess..." and "all things will be subject to Jesus" and something wonderful about Jesus making "ALL things new."
Regardless, another reason I am wrestling with "arrival" is because of the quote of a man who I respect very much. His name is G.K. Chesterton. He was a Christian thinker who influenced C.S. Lewis quite a bit. He said something like this about open-mindedness: "To have an open mind is nothing. The purpose of an open mind is like the purpose of an open mouth: so that it can shut upon something solid."
Now I do not mean to debunk or argue against your profound post in which I now reply, but to bring in a thought or two that challanges me to wrestle with myself and the (post)modern movements of the church.
I do want to tell you that I also get sick to the stomach when I think of the image of a christian that I grew up with. I also would like to agree with you that absolute truth is unknowable by us.
Nevertheless, I believe I have experienced snippets of a sort of "absolute faith" that cause me to desire arrival. Because this "absolute faith" feels a hell-of-a-lot like perfect Joy: humility, agressive peacefullness, love, patience, deepness and confidence.
Because I do not, necessarily, believe that this sort of "absolute faith" is "achievable," I am left wondering just how, when, and where the Kingdom will fully break into this life--that I might once again bask in the Joy of knowing Him "fully."
Please let me know what you think about all this bla,
Specifically, what do you think about the G.K. Chesterton quote?
JDR
Jorie,
I re-read your post, and was moved by your thoughts on doubt. The first thing that struck me was in your point about doubt leading to questions, and then new ideas and perspectives and "theories"--perhaps ones that are more liberating. I've had this experience often. Yet I was also a bit discouraged by what I realize as my own lazyness. If I really allowed doubt to cause change on a regular basis, I should be a pretty dynamic thinker (we're all dynamic when compared to the right people). Rather (and this is another point in which your bit on doubt struck a chord) I tend to hold on to it like a life vest that is keeping my head just above the water's edge. I am afraid that if I let go, I will not float... but rather, sink into the endless abyss and die.
So doubt often causes me to be "stuck" in one place.
For some reason, I am realizing that EXPECTATION [of failure] causes a lot of this fear--or at least harbors a lot of it. The more I am able to clear my mind of expectation, or distract my mind from it, the better.
Other thoughts I had concerning our conversation [your post] deal more with the nature of "closing your mind" on something.
I started to wonder if the disparity between "open-handednes of the mind" and "close mindedness" is exaserbated by the Enlightenments (age of Reason: began in 18th c.) overwhealming emphasis on the MIND--i.e. REASON--and overwhealming under-emphasis on other aspects (perhaps more fundamental aspects) of the Human Life Form (or, what we might think of as The Soul).
That's all I can squeeze out for now. Have to get back to work!
Talk to you soon,
JDR
Josh,
In response to G.K. Chesterson's quote... "To have an open mind is nothing. The purpose of an open mind is like the purpose of an open mouth: so that it can shut upon something solid."
I can see how this comment makes you struggle because of your post modern thinking and frame of mind. Reading your post was like reading my own thoughts and struggles in a way because, like yours, my mind does not give me any rest. My opinion on this comment is this:
I believe it to be completely valid. I think that open mindedness is a must. However, we can't be so flippant that we believe and embrace every new idea that comes at us.. (which I am totally pointing my finger at myself because I struggle with this.) I just don't think that G.K. Chesterson was totally poo-pooing the idea of an open mind in his comment. He said that an open mind's purpose is to shut upon something solid... isn't that the same as embracing a new idea or theory. Like, you...and me too, (because of the book you gave me) embracing the idea of The Kingdom of God. Something that Christians are called to be building towards. Feeding the hungry, bringing justice to the unjust world, helping the oppressed, showing love, kindness, tenderness, forgiveness, mercy. Is that not something that we both believe in. Something that we believe to be something solid...straight from Jesus' mouth? Yet it hasn't been something widely taught or researched. Maybe now it is coming around, but not in Rock Falls.. we are still old-school here. Learning the same stuff as always, some good, some misleading to say the least. To me, the Kingdom of God used to be another name for Heaven (which ironically, is exactly what it is supposed to be). I used to think of it as the Heaven that God lives in now and not something that we, the body, are to aid in creating, though only God can finish it, perfect it. Do you get my thinking? Yea, nay? All of my comments are just thoughts, though. I am, as you say, a student, and I hope to continue to be eager to learn more. I just wish I wasn't so alone in my thinking here in Rock Falls. I shared one of my books "messy spirituality" with a Christian friend, hoping for a little companionship in this new way of thinking, but I don't know if she'll read it, and I'm a little afraid of her opinion, but if she likes it I will reccommend "Blue Like Jazz". (Don't worry, I will get it back so you can read it- you know-"Messy Spirituality").
-Jorie
p.s. I really think that you have landed on a lot of conclusions in your own faith, I just think that you have more questions than conclusions, as do I.
Josh,
I will hopefully get a chance to comment on more of your writing tomorrow because I only tackled a tiny bit of what you had to say and I'd love to read your posts again and respond some more.
Love, Jorie
p.s. Thanks for always being an encouragement to me towards writing. I want to write so badly and you are the only person who pushes me in that direction. Well... there is one more person... Grandma Canon told me that I should be a writer after all of those emails from Finland after I came home, and, of course, I never forgot that. It gives me strength and hope. (Just a little personal comment out of nowhere).
Helloooo Josh,
Well, now I would love to comment on your comment about my comment on doubt..whew!
When I read what you wrote about doubt and how many times you hang on to it like a life preserver, I just wanted to tell you that I could have been reading that about myself. When I doubt, I too can hang on to it for a long time and then there's that fear that maybe my doubt is accurate, or sometimes that my doubt is inaccurate. For example, there is a doubt that I am struggling with right now at this very moment and I have been struggling with it off and on for months now. Spanking. I so want to find a solution... a different solution... a godly solution that is anti-spank. However, my fear is that God really does back spanking up and that it really is the best discipline for young children. The reason I struggle with it is obvious, of course... to many flashbacks, too many memories. I also hate seeing myself act like our parents did when we did something wrong. So there it is. Just because I wrote that long and profound message about doubt does not mean I have answers. I am a fellow seeker, a fellow student of Jesus. Doubt is a struggle, but it does lead me to great conversations like these, great soul searching, and intent seeking for answers via the bible and prayer. However, I have to admit that I have not scoured the Bible on this topic for fear of harsh black and white answers. The reason I had some insight on the topic of doubt and conclusions and open-mindednes and the Kingdom of God is only because I read the books that you gave me for Christmas, they have really opened my mind towards great fresh new perspectives... Biblical perspectives.
Doubting some of our original beliefs have led us to some new conclusions, so I still think that doubt is a necessity for growth. It has lead me to believe in the Kingdom of God being a calling to us Christians. Jesus wants us to feed the hungry, help the opressed, stand up for justice, and love our enemies. That all builds up the Kingdom of God, and someday God Himself will finish our work. He will perfect it, and it will be Heaven. (My old perspective on the Kingdom of God?) The Kingdom of God is Heaven, where God reigns. Which, ironically is true, but it is so much more than that. I had no idea that it was something that we are called to work toward, to help build. So that doubt led us to a new conclusion, which we believe to be true.
Anyway, I am also rambling. Easy for us to do isn't it? I just wanted to let you know that I very much struggle with doubt and also with letting go of doubt and just giving it to God... He can still use that kind of doubt to enlighten us, though.
-Jor
Jorie,
I'm so impressed with how quickly you've grabed a hold of all this!
The first thing this "paradigm shift" makes me think of is grace. It used to be that I would struggle with giving a homeless guy a buck because I highly suspected his honesty in approaching me and asking me for some change--or because he would, "use it for booze."
Then one day during (or shortly after) some devotional time, I realized how short-sighted that was. Did I not just run up the steps of the Throne room of God and ask (expectingly) to recieve grace and mercy that would equate to joy? And did I not know that I would be spending that grace and mercy on my own brokenness? And that, in fact, there were issues inside of me that were unresolved and depraved and broken, and that God gave me the mercy anyway?
Henry Nuowen said that he had to come to the conclusion that the Father--as in the story of the Prodigal Son--accepted him "no questions asked." He makes a good case for it to when he deconstructs the story of the Prodigal Son within the context of 1st Century Judiasm. The implications of this were profound to me. That God loves humanity because they are His created... and that He loves them, "no questions asked."
So that is when I started giving money to the poor happily, "no questions asked." And I believe that the action of doing this simple thing has significantly altered my theology and "escatology" (if I have an escatalogical point of view!!!). The act of spending grace perfectly freely has planted a seed in my heart. A seed of The Kingdom of God.
My small group leader syas that no matter what it appears like right now, that God will use our actions of Kingdom Justice in the end to re-create this world and join heaven and earth together when Jesus comes back again and makes all things new.
The paradox is in "what this looks like in the meantime." But alas, I at least know this: that it will look far different than I would imagine it... and it will produce far greater effects and it will glorify our Good and Faithful Father more accurately when it looks however he wants it to look--rather than however I want it to look. And I know that the desire to know what it "should look like" is often just the desire to be in control. And I've been down that cold, dark road.
more soon.
love you,
JDR
Hellooooo! Testing on Jenny's computer....
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